The Power of Music Thinking

Resonant Bodies with Emma Kate Matthews

Spatiosonic practice is the groundbreaking field at the heart of this episode. Christof Zürn sits down with architect and composer Emma‑Kate Matthews to explore the profound links between the act of making space and the act of making sound.

In this episode, you will hear:

• Audio Landmarks: The 12-second reverb of the Sagrada Família versus a dry anechoic chamber.

• Resonant Bodies: Emma‑Kate’s self-made, 3D-printed experimental instruments.

• Aural Diversity: Why "reading the air" requires acknowledging that we all hear the world differently.

Key Topics:

• Why architecture is an active collaborator, not a passive host.

• Translating technical acoustic language into intuitive community terms.

• The creative value of "not knowing" and letting experiments talk back to you.

About the Guest: Emma‑Kate Matthews is an architect, composer, and educator. She is the co-editor of the Routledge Companion to Sound and Space and explores the intersection of sonic and spatial practices.

Links and Resources:

• Website Emma-Kate Matthews: https://www.ekmworks.com/

• The Routledge Companion to the Sound of Space: https://www.soundingfuture.com/en/article/reflections-routledge-companion-sound-space

• Music Thinking Society on Substack: https://musicthinking.substack.com/

• Full Episode Page: https://musicthinking.com

 

Soil Ecoacoustics - Listening to the Underground with Alex F Taylor

Soil ecoacoustics is the groundbreaking scientific field at the heart of this podcast episode, where Christof Zürn deconstructs the mental models of exceptional individuals who perform at the top of their fields and also happen to be musicians. This conversation explores the profound links between music and scientific work – featuring the seminal papers, scientific research, and unique habits you can leverage as a toolkit for your own path.

Meet the Guest: Alex Flynn Taylor is a Research Assistant at Flinders University with the Frontiers of Restoration Ecology team. While he is the bass and guitar player for the indie-rock band Stormy-Lou, his pioneering scientific work involves sticking aluminium probes and contact microphones into the earth to listen to the hidden vibrations of our ecosystems.

The Hidden Sounds of the Underground
In this rare sensory experience, you can hear the frantic activity of ants, the literal "stickiness" of a gum snout moth caterpillar’s crawl, and the stark audible difference between "low-life" and healthy, biodiverse soil.

Key Insights from the Episode

• Nature as a 'Mix': Why Alex’s musical brain views the environment not as isolated data points, but as a complete, interconnected soundscape where even cargo trains are part of the "composition".
• Underground Harmony: Exploring the frequency harmony of nature and how active listening changes our scientific approach to restoration.
• Science and Wisdom: The intersection of Western scientific research and First Nations wisdom in understanding our complex ecosystems.
• The Power of Listening: Why the ability to "read the air" – and the earth – is a foundational tool for both the laboratory and the stage.

Show notes

• Connect with Alex: https://bsky.app/profile/alexftaylor.bsky.social
• Hums in the Humus (paper): https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(25)00357-X 
• More on https://musicthinking.com 

Beethoven and AI Agents with Matthias Röder

Matthias is an internationally recognised expert at the intersection of creativity, leadership, and artificial intelligence. 

He was the Director of the Karajan Institute and led the team that used AI to complete Beethoven’s 10th Symphony. He is also a trained Classical Guitarist, Musicologist, Musictech Visionary, Founder, and Angel Investor.

We discuss why he believes AI is actually 'email autocomplete' for music, why we should view it as a 'living archive' rather than a replacement, and why leaving behind the concept of 'right and wrong' is the ultimate freedom.

Show Notes

• Connect with Matthias on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthiasroder/
• Website: http://www.matthiasroder.com

Related podcasts:

• Orchestrating Innovation and AI for your business
• Challenging the AI Oracle: Maya Ackerman on Music, Creativity, and Collaboration
• Why modern leaders need to stop conducting and start synthesising

 

Walking with a Shakuhachi Priest - music thinking in action

In many episodes, we discuss the strategic bridge between the boardroom and the stage, often focusing on clear insights and structured conversations about leadership and innovation.

Today is different.

We step out of the studio and into the heat of Nara, Japan, for a "soundwalk" with Jonen, a 'shakuhachi priest' and former Komuso monk.

Jonen’s practice isn’t about silence; it’s about engagement. In this immersive field recording, we explore the Japanese concept of "reading the air" (Kuuki wo yomu) and the practice of "meditation in the midst." He demonstrates that playing the bamboo flute is not about performing for an audience, but about harmonising with the environment — regardless of what that environment contains.

In our conversation today, the soundscape is as much a guest as Jonen is. You will hear the raw, unfiltered interaction between the shakuhachi and the world around it: from the hypnotic drone of cicadas and the rhythm of cleaning crews to the jarring intrusion of election loudspeakers.

This is listening as active participation. It is an experiment in presence, adaptability, and finding contentment in the "zero state."

Show notes

• Jonen's book on Amazon: Komuso Outlaw: The Writings of an American Renegade Priest in Japan
• Conversation with my teacher: The Sound of Nature with Hélène Seiyu Codjo
• More on Japan: Sound Strategies and how things go together

And if you are listening as a leader and want the 'gist' of these insights — the strategic bridge between the boardroom and the stage — to support your own company, let’s talk. 

Whether it’s a facilitation session or acting as a sounding board for your leadership team, you can reach me directly via LinkedIn

 

Audio investigation for human rights with Fabio Cervi

In many episodes, we talk about how sound and listening can make a difference for good. We’ve explored themes like sound healing, music psychology, and deep listening—all ways sound and music thinking can be a force for good.

Today is somewhat different.

We speak with Fabio Cervi, an audio investigator for Earshot, a non-profit audio investigation organisation that works on the front lines of human rights and environmental advocacy.

Fabio’s work isn't just about listening; it's about finding evidence. He uses sound to tell the stories of communities affected by violence.

In our conversation today, Fabio shares sound files from two astonishing cases. First, we’ll hear and deconstruct the evidence from an attack on a silent vigil in Serbia, involving a mysterious sound that people felt rather than heard, and a potential sonic weapon known as an LRAD.

Then, we move to the occupied Syrian Golan Heights to explore Zifzafa, a protest video game that uses real-world field recordings to fight against an illegal massive wind turbine project.

This is audio as ballistics, as evidence, and as advocacy. It’s a truly fascinating look at how sound can be used in the fight for justice.

Show notes

• Connect with Fabio via Instagram: @fabioclaudioc
• Earshot - audio investigations for communities affected by corporate, state, and environmental injustice: https://earshot.ngo
• Connect with earshot on Instagram: @earshot.ngo and Twitter: @earshot_ngo

Related podcasts

• Sonic UX research with Caitlyn Trevor
• Deep listening with Sharon Stewart
• Health care, Sound healing and mantras
  
  

Orchestrating Innovation and AI for your business

The word 'orchestration' is everywhere in business right now—we see 'innovation orchestrator,' 'data orchestrator.', ‘Change orchestrator’. It’s become a strategic buzzword and many are using it, just search for the term on LinkedIn.

 

I’ve mentioned my research on this topic before, and I’m thrilled to share that the full peer-reviewed paper—which I co-authored and presented at the RSD14 Relating Systems Thinking and Design conference—is now available. You can find the link in the show notes.

 

But to bring this idea to life, I wanted to try an experiment. I used AI, specifically NotebookLM, to take the core concepts from our paper and turn them into a conversation, as if it were a podcast itself.

 

So, what you’re about to hear is a 16-minute audio piece, created by AI, that explores what a musical orchestrator actually does, and how this music thinking relates to business, all based on our research. 

 

It's a fun experiment, and I think it's the perfect introduction to why this concept is so critical for leadership today. Let’s listen. 

 

Show notes

• Read the abstract and download the full paper: The Analogy of Orchestration in systemic Co-design https://musicthinking.com/the-analogy-of-orchestration-in-systemic-co-design/
• Podcast episode: Everything about Orchestration with Robin Hoffmann: https://musicthinking.com/everything-about-orchestration-with-robin-hoffmann/
• If you're interested in taking this conversation from the podcast into your organisation, visit musicthinking.com to learn about my leadership facilitation and sounding board sessions. Or, if you have a specific question, reach out to me via email at christof-at-musicthinking-dot-com.

 

 

Marketing & Singing with Jessica Wan

One of the great myths of a modern career is that you have to choose just one path. My guest today, Jessica Wan, is living proof that you absolutely don’t.

Her career has taken her from leading marketing teams at world-renowned organisations like Apple and the San Francisco Opera, to becoming a sought-after executive coach. And running parallel to all of this, she is a classically trained singer preparing for her next recital.

She champions a philosophy she calls 'The Ampersand Manifesto', which celebrates people who connect multiple passions and professions. 

It's a really inspiring chat about embracing all parts of who you are. And as a special treat, you will also hear a sneak peek at the end of the conversation from Jessica's recital. She sings a song together with the audience that was popular everywhere in Taiwan in the 80s and 90s called 月亮代表我的心 – The Moon Represents My Heart. So, let's dive into the conversation.

Show notes

• Connect with Jessica: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicamwan/ 
• Jessica Wan, Executive & Leadership Coach: https://www.jessicawan.com
• The Ampersand Manifesto podcast: https://www.theampersandmanifesto.com/

You like this? Consider buying me a coffee: https://ko-fi.com/musicthinking and don't forget to visit https://musicthinking.com for more fun, free downloads, book, and workshops.

 

Sonic UX research with Caitlyn Trevor - The Power of Music Thinking

Could smart sound design actually make calling a hospital a less stressful experience? And what if the sound of a cello could be scientifically mapped to our emotions?

These are just some of the questions we’ll be exploring today with our guest, Caitlyn Trevor. Caitlyn holds a PhD in Music Theory, a Master’s in Cello Performance, and is an award-winning film score composer. As a researcher and UX professional, her work sits at that fascinating intersection of performance, science, and user experience.

In our chat, we trace Caitlyn’s journey from discovering the Lord of the Rings soundtrack to conducting neuroscience research in Switzerland. We’ll get into the specifics of how playing music acts as a full-body exercise for the brain, and why she’s applying that knowledge to improve everyday sonic experiences. We also discuss her fantastic LinkedIn series, "Sound Effects," which shows how sound can drive behaviour change. For example, one post reveals how adding a simple warning sound to an e-scooter can cut the number of times it goes unnoticed by pedestrians from a staggering 97% down to just 3%. It's a wonderful conversation packed with insight. 

Show notes

• Connect with Caitlyn via LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caitlyn-trevor/  
• The Sound Effect series on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/sonicuxr  
• Video Music in the tunnel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Irk1leLxfk  
• What is Music Cognition, video by David Heron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76p5B9nyPk  

Show support
If this podcast has sparked an idea, offered a new perspective, or provided a tool you’ve found useful. Please consider to support Music Thinking on Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/musicthinking  

Intersection of Music and Data with Chris Dalla Riva

Today we’re heading to Hoboken, New Jersey, to speak with Chris Dalla Riva, who works at the fascinating intersection of music and data. He’s a Senior Product Manager at the streaming service Audiomack, and the writer behind the popular newsletter Can’t Get Much Higher. His work has been featured by The Economist and NPR, and you might know him as the guy who set off an internet-wide debate about the decline of key changes in popular music.

In our conversation today, we get into some incredible territory. We’ll discuss his research into the Billboard charts that reveals the surprising moment Black artists began to dominate popular music. We’ll also find out how his company, Audiomack, is beating giants like Spotify across Africa with one simple, but crucial, feature. And we'll hear about the book that came from his personal quest to analyze every single Billboard number one hit since 1958.

Show notes

• Connect with Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-dalla-riva-114ab078/ 
• Website: https://www.chrisdallariva.com/uncharted
• The free and open spreadsheet with all Billboard Top 100 from 1958: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j1AUgtMnjpFTz54UdXgCKZ1i4bNxFjf01ImJ-BqBEt0/edit?gid=1077686609#gid=1077686609

Show support

If this podcast has sparked an idea, offered a new perspective, or provided a tool you’ve found useful. You can now show your appreciation and help sustain the show through our new Ko-fi page.

Your support, whether a one-time ‘coffee’ or a monthly membership, makes a huge difference. Thank you for being part of this journey. Please consider to support Music Thinking on Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/musicthinking 

 

 

Audio Postcards from Japan & The Future of Music Thinking

And we're back! In this special first episode after the summer break, Christof takes you on a sensory journey to Japan with a series of 'audio postcards' recorded in Kyoto, Tokyo, and Koyasan. It's an immersive exploration of sound, mindfulness, and creativity.

Stick around for the second half, where Christof makes three major announcements about the future of Music Thinking, including a new way for you to support the show and an upcoming online workshop.

---

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL HEAR:

• Audio Postcard #1: The serene water basin and surrounding soundscape of the Ryoanji Temple garden in Kyoto.

• Audio Postcard #2: The chaotic, energetic wave of sound at the famous Shibuya Scramble Crossing in Tokyo.

• Audio Postcard #3: The meditative, rhythmic sound of a Zen garden being raked by artisans in Koyasan.

• Announcement 1: Introducing a brand new, simple way to support the podcast on Ko-fi.

• Announcement 2: Details on the new 'Music Thinking 101' online workshop.

• Announcement 3: A preview of the exciting new guest episodes and Japan specials coming this season.

---

❤️ SUPPORT THE SHOW

If you find value in Music Thinking, you can now support the show directly and help keep it ad-free and independent. Become a member for perks or make a one-time 'thank you' donation on our new Ko-fi page: ▶︎ https://ko-fi.com/musicthinking

---

🧠 NEW ONLINE WORKSHOP: MUSIC THINKING 101

Join the new 90-minute online introduction to the Music Thinking Framework. A fast-paced, interactive session to transform how you co-create, lead, and understand your business. ▶︎ https://lu.ma/is0p00tv

---

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• Ryoanji Temple, Kyoto

• Shibuya Scramble Crossing, Tokyo

• Kongobuji Temple, Koyasan

Pro Tip: For an even better listener experience, consider adding timestamps to the items in the "IN THIS EPISODE" list after you've edited the final audio.