The Power of Music Thinking

In Episode 77 of The Power of Music Thinking, host Christof Zürn speaks with ethnomusicologist, gamelan teacher, AI scholar and senior lecturer Dr Pravina Manoharan (Universiti Sains Malaysia) about music in the context of people, leadership, and technology.

 

In this episode:

• The Beach Harmonium – Shifting from Western piano to the hand-pumped Indian harmonium.

• Tamil Hip-Hop – How diaspora communities in Malaysia used multilingual hip-hop as a political voice.

• The Startup & The Gamelan – Why rotating roles in a gamelan ensemble teaches cross-functional leadership and ensemble listening.

• Cultural AI Bias – The risks of AI platforms misrepresenting non-Western music and flattening cultural sounds.

• Refugee Empowerment – Helping Rohingya refugee children learn English and process trauma through a musical adaptation of The Jungle Book.

"Imagine you are part of a startup. You don't necessarily have to play all the instruments at once, but you need to know their functions so that when everyone plays together, you learn how to listen to everybody else." – Dr Pravina Manoharan

 

Full show notes on:
https://musicthinking.com/the-startup-and-the-gamelan-shared-leadership-tamil-hip-hop-and-cultural-ai-bias-with-pravina-manoharan/
 
Join the Community:
If you are enjoying this conversation, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast player!
Furthermore, join our monthly email newsletter to get the latest episodes, archive highlights, the Jam Card of the month, and more. 👉 https://musicthinking.substack.com/

 

Can you hear inaudible sound? What has romantic composer Robert Schuhmann in common with Yoko Ono?

Beyond traditional music, inaudible melodies and complex acts of perception carry profound insights for how we think, communicate, and lead.

Today, Music Thinker Chrstof Zürn sits together with music professor, musicologist, and author Kate Doyle to unpack the hidden dimensions of listening. Specifically, we explore how listening differently reveals deep connections between music, second-order cybernetics, and human empathy.

In this episode, we dive into:

• Inaudible Melodies & Yoko Ono: How Robert Schumann wrote an "inner voice" into his score that was never meant to be played out loud, and why Yoko Ono's mental text scores in Grapefruit train our capacity for complex listening.
• Second-Order Cybernetics: The practice of listening to listening and observing the observer, and how taking responsibility for our descriptions changes our relationship with complex systems.
• Vedic Sound Gradations: Exploring ancient Indian theories where sound exists across gradations far beyond what human ears physically register.
• The Practice of Listening: Why Kate teaches active listening to non-music undergraduates in business, computer science, and pre-med to cultivate empathy and better collaboration.

Full show notes (it is a long list this time) on:

https://musicthinking.com/cybernetics-yoko-ono-and-inaudible-sound-with-kate-doyle/ 

 

Join the Community: If you are enjoying this conversation, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast player! Furthermore, join our monthly email newsletter to get the latest episodes, archive highlights, the Jam Card of the month, and more. 👉 https://musicthinking.substack.com/

 

 

Pack your headphones and join host Christof Zürn for an immersive special episode. We travel across Europe to explore how deep, mindful listening can transform our perspective on space, time – and leadership.

In this episode:

• The Venice Biennale: Field recordings from the 61st Art Biennale themed In Minor Keys. Explore the subtle soundscapes of wind, water, and interactive installations across the Belgian, Finnish, Romanian, and Polish pavilions.
• The Vatican Pavilion: A contemplative spatial walk through the The Ear is the Eye of the Soul exhibition in the Giardino Mistico. Discover how movement-sensitive headphones blend 12th-century scores by Hildegard von Bingen with contemporary sounds by Brian Eno, Patti Smith, Terry Riley, and AI artists Herndon and Dryhurst.
• Vitra Campus: Experience near-binaural recordings inside the contemplative Doshi Retreat in Weil am Rhein, designed by Balkrishna Doshi, where gongs and flutes erase the boundaries between self and architecture.
• John Cage and The Long Now: Journey to Halberstadt, Germany, to learn about the 639-year-long performance of Organ2/ASLSP, As Slow as Possible, which runs until the year 2640. Plus, hear how Christof uses Cage’s silent piece 4'33" as a team-building tool.
• What are the "minor keys" – the quiet, overlooked voices – in your personal life, team, or organisation that need closer listening?

Subscribe to our podcast and join the community on Substack to receive monthly updates, Jam Card prompts, and leadership assets: https://musicthinking.substack.com 

 

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Show Notes and Links

• Venice Biennale Website: https://www.labiennale.org/en/art/2026 
• Hildegard von Bingen on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen 
• Hans Ulrich Obrist Interview in Arts of the Working Class: https://artsoftheworkingclass.org/text/a-conversation-with-hans-ulrich-obrist-and-ben-vickers-on-hildegard-of-bingen 
• Giardino Mistico Website: https://www.giardinomistico.it/blog/2020/06/01/riapre-il-giardino-mystico/ 
• Giardino Mistico Free Registration: https://www.coopculture.it/it/eventi/evento/lorecchio-e-locchio-dellanima/ 
• Herndon and Dryhurst Exhibition at K21 Düsseldorf: https://www.kunstsammlung.de/en/exhibitions/holly-herndon-mat-dryhurst-en 
• Doshi Retreat at Vitra Campus Website: https://www.vitra.com/en-un/campus/news/details/doshi-retreat 
• Organ2/ASLSP Project Page: https://www.aslsp.org/das-projekt.html 
• Sabine Groschup’s Experimental Film: https://vimeo.com/637619443 
• Related Podcast – Soundwalk in the Summer: https://musicthinking.com/sound-walk-in-the-summer-with-christof-zurn/

Chapter markers:

00:00:00.000 Opening sounds
00:00:46.000 Intro Music Thinking
00:02:03.000 The Sounds of Venice
00:03:35.000 Biennale di Venezia
00:04:44.000 In Minor Keys - Koyo Kuoho
00:06:23.000 Music Thinking
00:07:33.000 Belgium
00:08:38.000 Finland
00:10:36.000 Romania
00:11:57.000 Poland
00:14:14.000 Reflection
00:15:35.000 Giardino Mistico
00:20:55.000 Precious Okoyomon
00:23:22.000 More Biennale
00:25:25.000 benefits - Music Thinking
00:26:49.000 Balkrishna Doshi Vitra Campus
00:33:16.000 Halberstadt
00:34:33.000 John Cage
00:35:38.000 Using 4'33'' in a Workshop
00:37:44.000 Organ2/ASLSP
00:41:58.000 Reflecting Exercise
00:44:37.000 Before we go

 

What does basketball truly sound like? Beyond the simple squeak of a sneaker, the soundtrack of sports carries profound socio-cultural and economic stories.

Today, ethnomusicologist and sound artist Jordan Zalis unpacks the hidden sonic layers of the NBA. Specifically, we explore how listening differently reveals deep connections between sports, music, and business leadership.

 

In this episode, we dive into:

• The Sneaker Squeak: How this sound signifies both real-time improvisation and the global circulation of capital.
• Creative Constraints: Why the strict rules of basketball mirror musical boundaries to unlock infinite creativity.
• 'Just Listening': An aural Rorschach test that turns everyday sounds into profound emotional memories.
• The Monk Offence: How championship-winning coach Nick Nurse applied jazz principles to basketball. Learn why treating your team like a "permanent jam session" fosters true spontaneity.

Join the Community: If you are enjoying this conversation, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast player! Furthermore, join our monthly email newsletter to get the latest episodes, archive highlights, the Jam Card of the month, and more. 👉 https://musicthinking.substack.com/ 

 

Show Notes & Links:

• Connect with Jordan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanzalis/ 
• Jordan Zalis website: https://jordanzalis.com/
• Read Jordan's paper investigating the sociocultural implications of basketball: https://revistas.um.es/reg/article/view/716281
• More about The Power of Music Thinking: musicthinking.com

Episode Chapters:
00:00 Opener and Nick Nurse quote

03:57 First Sonic Memory: A Lullaby in Harmony

09:06 Ethnomusicology and the Soundtrack of Sports

10:33 Grassroots Soccer Chants vs. Corporate Spectacles

19:24 NBA, Basketball and Popular Music

23:00 Recording with Binaural Microphones

30:39 What Does Basketball Sound Like? (Creativity & Constraint)

39:40 Deconstructing the Sneaker Squeak

45:30 Deep Listening and the Aural Rorschach Test

47:47 The Just Listening Workshop & The Bouncy Ball

54:10 Workshop Exercise

01:01:07 Global Basketball Cultures and NBA Expansion

01:07:36 The Monk Offense: Leaders as Jam Session Directors

01:09:42 Outro and Show Notes

Intrinsic motivation, leadership, and extreme performance are at the heart of this podcast episode, where Christof Zürn deconstructs the mental models of exceptional individuals who perform at the top of their fields and also happen to be musicians. This conversation explores the profound links between leading academic scientists and playing historical string instruments - featuring expert research, unique mindsets, and the intense discipline you can leverage as a toolkit for your own path.

Meet the Guest: Ralph Meulenbroeks has lived a fascinating, multitrack life. He started his career in physical engineering, researching large-scale solar cells, before pivoting to become a full-time, professional bass and viola da gamba player for ten years - recording 15 albums, winning an Edison award, and touring the world. 

Today, he is a full professor of scientific literacy and chairs the Freudenthal Institute at Utrecht University, where he leads 120 highly autonomous academics. Yet, every single morning, his day still starts with meditation and playing his instrument.

Key Insights from the Episode

• The Pressure of the Passion: Discover the unique qualities of the viola da gamba - a historical, fretted relative of the lute family with six or seven strings - and what it feels like to endure the immense psychological pressure of playing the highly exposed solos in Bach's St. Matthew Passion.
• Tuning In under Pressure: How the intense process of silently tuning highly sensitive gut strings during a 45-minute wait in the St. Matthew Passion translates directly to 'tuning in' to the emotional temperature of a team of academics at the start of a meeting.
• Redefining Intrinsic Motivation: Why almost everyone misinterprets this term. Ralph explains that true intrinsic motivation means the activity is its own reward - not a means to an end - and why it is an incredibly robust predictor of high performance in teams.
• Ensemble Forgiveness: Why the ultimate leadership tool is behaving like a classical or free jazz ensemble. When a mistake happens, you cannot point fingers; you must instantly forgive, adapt, and restore the balance together so the audience never notices.
• The 'No Excuses' Mindset: Why playing a difficult instrument forces a high degree of self-reflection. If a wrong note happens, it is almost always the player and rarely the instrument's fault - a humbling lesson every leader needs to embrace.
• The Macrobiotic Chord: How a 35-year practice of macrobiotic cooking and balancing Yin and Yang perfectly mirrors the tension and relaxation required to create musical, but also business harmony.

Show notes:

• Connect with Ralph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphrousseau/ 
• St. Matthew Passion Excerpt (Komm, süßes Kreuz): https://youtu.be/WvHTBBLXa-g?si=HIv_K-6ZxzMGt50u 
• Podium Klassiek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzWjGyjIAQ8 
• The Jazz of Physics by Stephon Alexander: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/26195938-the-jazz-of-physics
• Music Thinking Society on Substack: https://musicthinking.substack.com/ 
• More info and downloads on Music Thinking: https://musicthinking.com 

 

 

We are celebrating a major milestone! Exactly five years ago, on the 19th of May, The Power of Music Thinking podcast was launched.

To mark the occasion, host Christof Zürn revisits the archives to share hidden gems, profound insights, and incredible sonic journeys from the past five years. Based on neurobiologist Nina Kraus's insight that "we can ultimately hear only what we already know," this special episode is designed to expand what you know by connecting the worlds of music, leadership, and space.

What We Cover in This Episode:

• The 4 Big Themes for Modern Leaders: We dive into 20 essential leadership questions broken down into four key areas:

  1. Leadership Style & Organisational Structure (featuring the conductorless Orpheus Chamber Orchestra)

  2. Innovation, Agility & Strategy (tackling AI with Dr. Maya Ackerman)

  3. Culture, Communication & Empathy (practising active listening with Steve Keller)

  4. The Leader as an Individual: Development & Wellbeing ("mind DJing" with Jeena Earthiva)

• Sonic Travels & Spaces: We step outside organizational strategy to explore how sound shapes our physical world. Discover the "spatiosonics" of the Sagrada Familia with Emma-Kate Matthews, look inside instruments with Charles Brooks, cross cultural boundaries in Japan, and experience field recordings from Germany to Venice.

Featured Guest Snippets:

• Harvey Seifter on leadership without a conductor.

• Dr. Maya Ackerman on navigating generative AI.

• Steve Keller on the power of strategic silence.

• Jeena Earthiva on shifting your mindset under pressure.

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Resources & Links:

• The Complete 20 Questions Guide: Read the comprehensive guide with all the links and show notes from this archive deep-dive at musicthinking.com.

• Try the Music Thinking Search: Scroll down to the footer on any page of the website and type in a keyword like Japan, AI, Architecture, Orchestration, or Deep Listening to get a curated mix of episodes, articles, and downloads.

• Join the Community: Want to ask questions and discuss these 20 leadership themes with other music thinkers? Subscribe for free to the Music Thinking Substack.

Thank you for five incredible years of listening, and remember to listen to the spaces in between!

#leadership #musicthinking #personal #development #organisational #change

Spatiosonic practice is the groundbreaking field at the heart of this episode. Christof Zürn sits down with architect and composer Emma‑Kate Matthews to explore the profound links between the act of making space and the act of making sound.

In this episode, you will hear:

• Audio Landmarks: The 12-second reverb of the Sagrada Família versus a dry anechoic chamber.

• Resonant Bodies: Emma‑Kate’s self-made, 3D-printed experimental instruments.

• Aural Diversity: Why "reading the air" requires acknowledging that we all hear the world differently.

Key Topics:

• Why architecture is an active collaborator, not a passive host.

• Translating technical acoustic language into intuitive community terms.

• The creative value of "not knowing" and letting experiments talk back to you.

About the Guest: Emma‑Kate Matthews is an architect, composer, and educator. She is the co-editor of the Routledge Companion to Sound and Space and explores the intersection of sonic and spatial practices.

Links and Resources:

• Website Emma-Kate Matthews: https://www.ekmworks.com/

• The Routledge Companion to the Sound of Space: https://www.soundingfuture.com/en/article/reflections-routledge-companion-sound-space

• Music Thinking Society on Substack: https://musicthinking.substack.com/

• Full Episode Page: https://musicthinking.com

 

Soil ecoacoustics is the groundbreaking scientific field at the heart of this podcast episode, where Christof Zürn deconstructs the mental models of exceptional individuals who perform at the top of their fields and also happen to be musicians. This conversation explores the profound links between music and scientific work – featuring the seminal papers, scientific research, and unique habits you can leverage as a toolkit for your own path.

Meet the Guest: Alex Flynn Taylor is a Research Assistant at Flinders University with the Frontiers of Restoration Ecology team. While he is the bass and guitar player for the indie-rock band Stormy-Lou, his pioneering scientific work involves sticking aluminium probes and contact microphones into the earth to listen to the hidden vibrations of our ecosystems.

The Hidden Sounds of the Underground
In this rare sensory experience, you can hear the frantic activity of ants, the literal "stickiness" of a gum snout moth caterpillar’s crawl, and the stark audible difference between "low-life" and healthy, biodiverse soil.

Key Insights from the Episode

• Nature as a 'Mix': Why Alex’s musical brain views the environment not as isolated data points, but as a complete, interconnected soundscape where even cargo trains are part of the "composition".
• Underground Harmony: Exploring the frequency harmony of nature and how active listening changes our scientific approach to restoration.
• Science and Wisdom: The intersection of Western scientific research and First Nations wisdom in understanding our complex ecosystems.
• The Power of Listening: Why the ability to "read the air" – and the earth – is a foundational tool for both the laboratory and the stage.

Show notes

• Connect with Alex: https://bsky.app/profile/alexftaylor.bsky.social
• Hums in the Humus (paper): https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(25)00357-X 
• More on https://musicthinking.com 

Matthias is an internationally recognised expert at the intersection of creativity, leadership, and artificial intelligence. 

He was the Director of the Karajan Institute and led the team that used AI to complete Beethoven’s 10th Symphony. He is also a trained Classical Guitarist, Musicologist, Musictech Visionary, Founder, and Angel Investor.

We discuss why he believes AI is actually 'email autocomplete' for music, why we should view it as a 'living archive' rather than a replacement, and why leaving behind the concept of 'right and wrong' is the ultimate freedom.

Show Notes

• Connect with Matthias on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthiasroder/
• Website: http://www.matthiasroder.com

Related podcasts:

• Orchestrating Innovation and AI for your business
• Challenging the AI Oracle: Maya Ackerman on Music, Creativity, and Collaboration
• Why modern leaders need to stop conducting and start synthesising

 

In many episodes, we discuss the strategic bridge between the boardroom and the stage, often focusing on clear insights and structured conversations about leadership and innovation.

Today is different.

We step out of the studio and into the heat of Nara, Japan, for a "soundwalk" with Jonen, a 'shakuhachi priest' and former Komuso monk.

Jonen’s practice isn’t about silence; it’s about engagement. In this immersive field recording, we explore the Japanese concept of "reading the air" (Kuuki wo yomu) and the practice of "meditation in the midst." He demonstrates that playing the bamboo flute is not about performing for an audience, but about harmonising with the environment — regardless of what that environment contains.

In our conversation today, the soundscape is as much a guest as Jonen is. You will hear the raw, unfiltered interaction between the shakuhachi and the world around it: from the hypnotic drone of cicadas and the rhythm of cleaning crews to the jarring intrusion of election loudspeakers.

This is listening as active participation. It is an experiment in presence, adaptability, and finding contentment in the "zero state."

Show notes

• Jonen's book on Amazon: Komuso Outlaw: The Writings of an American Renegade Priest in Japan
• Conversation with my teacher: The Sound of Nature with Hélène Seiyu Codjo
• More on Japan: Sound Strategies and how things go together

And if you are listening as a leader and want the 'gist' of these insights — the strategic bridge between the boardroom and the stage — to support your own company, let’s talk. 

Whether it’s a facilitation session or acting as a sounding board for your leadership team, you can reach me directly via LinkedIn